Wednesday, January 29, 2014

Nullifiers Have A Plan To Stop The NSA: Turn Off Its Water Supply

TPM MUCKRAKER

Nullifiers Have A Plan To Stop The NSA: Turn Off Its Water Supply

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AP Photo
The California-based Tenth Amendment Center has teamed up with a few other organizations to promote model legislation that would have states refuse to cooperate with the NSA. There are a few ways this would work, but the flashiest part of the plan is to have Utah cut off the water supply to the NSA's Utah Data Center. No water means no cooling for the agency's massive computers. Or so the argument goes.
Here's the web ad the groups have put together:


The model legislation put together by The Tenth Amendment Center is called the 4th Amendment Protection Act. It would do a number of things. It would prohibit state officials and employees from providing support to the NSA. It would prohibit state resources from being used to support the NSA. It would bar information collected by the NSA from being used in criminal investigation or prosecution. It would bar state universities from working with the NSA. And it would bar corporations that provide services to the NSA from working for or providing services to the state.
In an interview with TPM on Friday, Michael Boldin, the executive director of The Tenth Amendment Center, acknowledged that his group had a long, hard fight ahead. But he believes the issue of NSA mass surveillance -- unlike other issues the center has worked on, like federalgun law nullification -- crosses partisan lines. And he compared his group's efforts to those of the Civil Rights pioneer Rosa Parks.
"We believe when things are bad enough, you have to start looking at the Rosa Parks method of how to deal with it," Boldin said. "Sooner or later you got to just sit down and say, 'No, we're not going to participate in this.'"
Asked about a report that a Utah lawmaker had committed to introducing the 4th Amendment Protection Act in that state, Boldin said the last time his group had spoken with the lawmaker was about two weeks ago, and he cautioned that "sometimes they back out." In the meantime, Boldin's group has also put together a website, nullifynsa.com, to help promote their cause.
"We're not also trying to talk about the traditional Calhoun-type of nullification which is absolutely insane," Boldin explained. "The Calhoun thing, which is crazy, is taking the view that one state can say that, 'Oh, this law doesn't exist any more.' And that's not what we're trying to do. We're just trying to, in practice, come up with ways to stop participating -- again the Rosa Parks method -- stop participating in so many different ways, that it really just makes their attempt to do what they want to do almost impossible."

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

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Eric Lach is a reporter for TPM. From 2010 to 2011, he was a news writer in charge of the website?s front page. He has previously written for The Daily, NewYorker.com, GlobalPost and other publications. He can be reached atericl@talkingpointsmemo.com
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Turtles_Run
I dropped better plans during my morning poo.
Miles
It only counts if you mailed it to the NSA!
whit
The problem here is the Navigable Waters Act. The Feds have first claim on ownership of the rivers and lakes.
JuanCHolmes
That may be irrelevant; most municipal water sources are subterranean, to which the Navigable Waters Act doesn't apply. The issue here is actually one of the non-sovereign nature of municipalities, which in most states (Utah included) are forbidden to cut off utilities to a paying customer in good standing absent extraordinary circumstances.

Mind you, the Tenth Amendment Center would probably claim (inaccurately) that the NWA is magically unconstitutional on the grounds that no one thought to specifically authorize it at the Constitutional convention.
McBain
This sounds like a plan that Professor Chaos and General Disarray would hatch.
LeopoldBloom
You know what I see on this board? A lot of liberals doing exactly what we accuse the Tea Party of: taking the wrong side just because we disagree with the messenger.

Just as conservatives hate anything that comes out of Obama's mouth, even if they used to agree with it, I see liberals turning against civil liberties just because libertarians are picking up the torch on that issue.

Of course, many of those libertarians didn't care about civil liberties until THIS administration started infringing them, but the point is that if this is an issue on which the right and the left can come together, let's not fuck it up by complaining about the stupid stuff the Tenth Amendmenters also believe.
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sgt150
You lied when you stated that the Tenth Amendment Center aims to 'turn the Tenth Amendment into a twenty-eight word reinstitution of the Articles of Confederation' which is complete hogwash.

Perhaps Mr. Boldin just has more patience when dealing with liars than myself. And here is a fact that you seem to be unable to grasp: This plan to turn off the NSA falls under anti-commandeering grounds which are undeniably legal and constitutional. Quit conflating the issue and you'll receive more dignified responses.
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sgt150
Well then, it is your opinion that is tremendously misinformed and ignorant. The 4th Amendment Protection Act cuts off the NSA at the state level. That water belongs to the state of Utah, and they don't have to give them a drop. If the NSA comes in and takes the water, they are commandeering. Any questions?
JuanCHolmes
No, no questions; I actually understand exactly where you're wrong on the issue, but that's because I'm a professional political consultant with several laws on the books and am used to watching people who insist upon speaking with authority on things they know nothing about. As stated, this isn't a Constitutional issue at all, but a legislative one. It's also pretty clear you don't even know what the Tenth Amendment Center themselves are advocating, since you don't know the difference between the state of Utah and the municipality of Bluffdale, where the legislation is actually being proposed... at the local level, not the state level.
Lestatdelc
No. I disagree with most of the sutra and drag about the NSA, and have zero respect for SNoxedn et al.
LeopoldBloom
I have little respect for Snowden as an individual, or the particular path he took, but I can't deny that he has started a conversation that needed to be had.

He isn't a whistleblower, since the activities he revealed are not illegal.

But their legality is the story, and we are finally having a national debate (20 years late, perhaps) about whether a legal right to privacy exists on the internet.

I would like to see either Congress or the courts take a clear stand that the 4th Amendment protects internet communications (not public ones, but private ones), and that any government agency, whether law enforcement or intelligence, needs a warrant to use that information in any investigation of an American citizen, or foreign citizen on American soil.

But that is not the law right now, so our efforts should be to make it so.

The Internet is the future. It is where our children will live their lives to a greater degree than us, and our grandchildren to a greater degree than them. This is the moment we get to shape what that future looks like. Let's not let it slip by.
Diogenes67
Does anyone assume that if the NSA can tap into the web and collect everyone's communications that the Soviets and Chinese aren't doing the same thing? Do they have a problem with that?
LeopoldBloom
The Russians (not Soviets any more...) and the Chinese ARE doing the same thing, but they have no jurisdiction here. I couldn't care less if the Russians know I'm growing pot in my back yard, or if the Chinese know I visit transsexual prostitutes. I care if the NSA knows, because the NSA might actually share that information with the FBI or Justice Department.

Additionally, because so many websites are hosted in the United States, the NSA has much greater technical and legal ability to capture data and then use it against us.
DocFox
The problem with such approaches is that they tend to 'throw out the baby with the bathwater.'

First, I assume most of us agree that we are legitimately concerned with communications among and by Jihadists. If some of those communications are coming to people in the United States, then it is very reasonable to try to find out who's the contact at this end.

Second, I assume most of agree that it is not legitimate to have a record made and indexed of what I am typing here.

The problem is that we can't destroy the computer which has the latter, without destroying the computer that has the former.
Diogenes67
If you're posting on a public forum, you can't be expecting much privacy. Why not make a record of it? Besides, I haven't heard of of any US persons who have been personally harmed by any of NSA's collection programs. As far as I'm concerned NSA is one of the few federal agencies that gives this taxpayer his money's worth. If the Tenth Amendment Center really wants to feel important they should declare that red light cameras are unconstitutional and develop a plan to cut power from them.
LeopoldBloom
Huh? We're not talking about public forums. We're talking about people's private email correspondence and web browsing history.

If I post something in a public forum online, of course I have no right to privacy. You don't need the NSA to track that stuff; your local sheriff can do that.

What the NSA is doing is capturing information that is intended to be private, and is often encrypted. You should absolutely need a warrant to record such information, just as you would a phone conversation (which, by the way, are also being recorded and kept).
AnonymousBosch
I wonder what their plans are for Facebook, Google, Equifax, et al.

I find it endlessly amusing how many folks losing their cookies over the capacities of our intelligence and law enforcement services choose to do so on social media, alongside cloud-stored photos of the latest burrito they ate, and every other triviality of their daily lives.

But I guess privacy only matters when a government's involved, right?

#yourEULAwontprotectyou #tellittoKarenSilkwood
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sgt150
Companies like Facebook and Google gather information from users that is given to them voluntarily. The NSA steals private data from people illegally and in direct violation of the Constitution. There is a big difference.

Google and Facebook are unscrupulous companies, but they aren't operating in violation of the Constitution. The NSA is. I am not a fan of what Google and Facebook does, but you can simply choose not to use their services to not have your privacy violated. With the NSA, there is virtually no escape from their information gathering operation.
LeopoldBloom
This isn't a philosophical point. Putting aside the fact that lots of us use software to protect our identities from Facebook and Google that doesn't work against the NSA, Facebook and Google can't prosecute me for my behavior, so I don't care what they know about me.

Privacy from the government matters because the government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force (incarceration). To the degree that Google and Facebook do accumulate information about me that could be used by the government, I demand that the government get a warrant before the access that information.

That is what we are fighting for.
Doremus_Jessup
According to their website The Tenth Amendment Center also wants to abolish the Federal Reserve (because GOLD!!!), reject State Health Care Exchanges (which seems odd), opposes Medicaid expansion in the States and (no surprise) loves guns but really really hates the TSA.

Michael seems like a nice enough fellow but I'm reminded of the old idiom 'If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas".
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profg
It's very true that in the congressional debates over the wording of the tenth amendment there were several attempts to insert the word “expressly” into the tenth amendment. Madison opposed those efforts -- but NOT on grounds that the government wasn’t one of expressly enumerated powers. Madison’s opposition was based on the negatory effect the word “expressly” would have on the necessary and proper clause. Advocates for inclusion were concerned about the abuse of enumerated powers; whereas opponents were concerned the word “expressly” would diminish or eliminate entirely the necessary and proper clause. Madison himself reminded the House of Representatives that proponents for ratification assured the state conventions the federal government could not exceed its expressly enumerated powers.
JuanCHolmes
Your archaic viewpoints aside, the fact that you really can't tell the difference between disagreement and a lack of knowledge is indicative of an absolutist viewpoint addled and exacerbated by confirmation bias; this is further confirmed by the fact that you spent a great deal of effort repeating the same exact charges ad infinitum and then completely contradicting your entire position with the single sentence, "Madison’s opposition was based on the negatory effect the word 'expressly' would have on the necessary and proper clause," a sentence that, in and of itself, is further support of everything I've been patiently trying to explain to you.

Absolutism is a decidedly unevolved trait, and one which is the antithesis of the nuanced dialectic upon which the republic was founded; your strangely projected belief that simply because you apparently only consume information that supports that which you have already chosen to believe that other people must do the same (and, working for different sources than yourself, must therefore be incorrect) can be best described as intellectually unmotivated and colossally misguided.

This is of course to say nothing of the unwarranted hostility and vitriol you seem to feel is necessary to display towards people who have the temerity to disagree with your opinions; That some of us have demonstrable credentials in Constitutional law and/or history as opposed to your completely anonymous screeds is apparently of little consequence as a mitigating factor to you in your quest for self-righteous 

ANOTHER OPINION ---- DISCERNMENT REQUIRED

Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:04:10 AM
Subject: dinar: ANOTHER OPINION

RonnyO (Member)
2014-01-28 15:21:24

SURPRISE! WAIT TILL YOU SIT DOWN TO EXCHANGE!
I have tried to be quiet and just lurk, and I have been very quiet as to the information I have been allowed, and (Thank God I remained quiet), as otherwise, I too, would have been calling the RV every other weekend as well! But I have had a little bit of information on some of the things happening, Oh and I have also tried to warn people about this whole Purple Pigs and Republic nonsense, but did anyone listen? NO!

Now, I was also told that the disinformation, misinformation, misleading rumors and the very little potion or fraction of truth that has been shared, was absolutely necessary so as to allow the Government's agenda and this President's plan to be enacted for the betterment of all Americans and soon to an international community of consumers and individuals around the globe. This effort by this President and the global law enforcement community as well as some members from the finance management organizations around the globe, including the IMF, World Bank, the United Nations, and numerous Justice organizations including the FBI, CIA, INTERPOL, and numerous other law enforcement agencies have in fact been working behind the scenes and under cover, to search out and uncover widespread corruption and banking collusion, governmental injustices and the global "Good Ole Boy Networking System" and all that has been going on under the cover of secrecy and private banking communities under the old protocols which will soon be a thing of the past!

Yes, this has been a lengthy wait and yes certain individuals and "Groups" have exchanged and the government and the UST has allowed this thing to roll out slowly and in an orderly fashion, but you all will be surprised as this NOW comes to an exciting and JUST conclusion. Whereby all citizens of this now global community will have an opportunity to be treated fairly and justly, NOT JUST AMERICANS, but many around the world that have speculated on currency revaluations. REMEMBER ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TRIED TO TELL YOU IT'S NOT ABOUT US! It hasn't been, it's about everyone who deposits money in a bank around the WORLD! It's about fair wages and decent treatment for everyone IN THIS COUNTRY and many other countries around the globe.
Now, before you all start, and for all those who are warming up their fingers and itching to respond here, before they have even heard the punch line, hold your horses, as there will be more then enough time to bash after I conclude!
STARTING Now or almost immediately after tonight's STATE OF THE UNION address, you all will finally see the BOTTOM LINE in this deal, the CONCLUSION! You see, starting right about now, Americans will be treated to a new era in banking and financial dealings, as there is a new system coming on line now. In fact, in the years to come, the entire global banking system will change, where transparency and a completely new set of RULES, aimed at limiting Banks and other financial institutions powers and their abilities to use YOUR DEPOSITS. A new world is dawning, a world in which bankers and financial institutions serving the general public will be held to much higher standards and much more regulation that will limit their ability to leverage your deposits in Mortgage swap deals and widespread account SWEEPING, every night after their customers have gone home to bed. We are entering a new era in financial responsibility, where WE THE PEOPLE are better represented and our money is better protected. Now this doesn't come without some cost, but it is intended to better protect the general public and YOU the individual, when you loan these HUGE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS your money either when you make a deposit or when you participate in large mutual investment programs by placing your retirement funds in 401k's or other conservative investment vehicles.
There is a new era in financial management of people's money dawning here and it is intended to better protect the individual and the general public, but even more important, this new system and the associated currency reforms will create tremendous new opportunities for us little guys, Joe Public, and the way, the markets allow the lower to middle income portion of our society to play or have a seat at the table.
Tonight, you will hear the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES introduce His last agenda for the last two years of his Presidency. You will hear him tell you all that he has spent 6 years in office fighting a DO NOTHING CONGRESS that did a lot more then nothing, they have actually worked very hard to OBSTRUCT and HINDER anything intended to help and benefit the AMERICAN PEOPLE, as if the opposition were to let this PRESIDENT succeed at anything, Creating Jobs, correcting the economy, increasing minimum wages for the American Public, or even keep Medicare solvent, Food stamp programs in place for folks having a hard time feeding their families, Veterans getting benefits due them or even something as simple as allowing unemployed persons in this country to keep receiving unemployment benefits, so that their children don't starve THE CONSERVATIVES FELT THAT WOULD BE A POLITICAL LOSS FOR THEM!!!!! IMAGINE A POLITICAL AGENDA AIMED AT HURTING PEOPLE AND HARMING THE ECONOMY, FOR THEIR POLITICAL GAIN! CAN YOU IMAGINE? WELCOME TO THE NEW POLITICAL AGENDA OF AMERICAN'S LARGEST CORPORATIONS AND THE ULTRA WEALTHY!. In fact, the conservative party in this country drew a line in the sand the day this President took office and said they COULD NOT, WOULD NOT, allow this PRESIDENT to succeed in even one area, as if they did, the American people would realize that the party to the left, is actually striving to represent the American People and their needs, instead of the ULTRA WEALTHY AND MEGA CORPORATION'S interests.

Now For the INTEL;

I was told tonight, you will hear this PRESIDENT introduce a series of initiatives aimed at evening out the playing field for small businesses, education and most importantly for the American people, he will address the HUGE GAP and or DISPARITY in wealth distribution in this country and how the 1/2 of 1%  of the wealthiest individuals in this country own the majority of all of the money this country holds. That means that under 1,500,000  people out of 350,000,000 in this country control over 65% of all the money in this country! But the story doesn't end there, you see, last year with millions of people out of work, and as corporations in this country continue to ship jobs to China and Indonesia, India and elsewhere around the world, where workers work for a $1.00 per day instead of us spoiled Americans who demand a "LIVING WAGE". YET, WE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE continue to vote for these conservative Politicians, or these people who represent these corporation's interests and for TAX BREAKS for the ULTRA WEALTHY, these MEGA corporations, some of which PAID NO TAXES LAST YEAR, while their political operatives actually fought, simultaneously, to deny people who lost the jobs now going out of the country, from getting UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, or GOD FORBID, FOOD STAMPS, for people having a mhard time in a market with NO JOBS and or a LOSS of real OPPORTUNITY in this country, which is fighting it's way back from being destroyed by the last administration, GW's Presidency!!!!!
So then, the question is, Why would anyone vote for these guys??? You got me, if you look at their policies, they represent the rich and corporations who sell thing to us, while not taking care of us AT ALL! They represent the people and companies who are fighting against us, the AMERICAN PEOPLE. The conservatives work for THEM, THE PTB, instead of US, YOU AND ME! The American people, who put them in office.

HERE'S THE PUNCH LINE.................................
BUT TONIGHT, THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO GIVE US ALL WHAT WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR, THAT's RIGHT, I'M CALLING IT, BUT FIRST, THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO TELL YOU THE TRUTH! FIRST, YOU WILL HAVE TO HEAR THE TRUTH AS TO WHO IS WORKING FOR YOU AND WHO IS WORKING DIRECTLY AGAINST YOU AND YOUR BEST INTERESTS. THIS EVENING, WE WILL GET THE INVITATION TO EXCHANGE OUR INVESTMENT CURRENCIES AN TOMORROW WE BEGIN, BUT FIRST PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LEARN THE SCORE!
Finally, before you start bashing and beat me up, REMEMBER 2 things, FIRST, you have all known for better then a year now that people have been listening and following discussions on all of these Dinar sites and boards. Remember, that when you come in here and spout all of your ridiculous CONSPIRACY THEORIES, BASH THE PRESIDENT and show how little you all know about what is really going on in this country, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE LISTENING and reading your IGNORANT and really sad posts that tell this administration that you don't want them in Washington D.C. to work to protect Social Security for our Retirement, to work to protect Medicare for our parents and one day us, your telling them you don't want them to fight for your right to get unemployment benefits, for food stamps so children don't starve to death in our country. Hell, your saying you don't want them to fight so that kids in this country who are poor, don't get SCHOOL LUNCHES! Can you imagine, GIVING EXXON and the OIL INDUSTRY a $Trillion Dollar PASS, while saying at the very same time, "don't feed those poor kids", that's not our responsibility!. These folks have been hearing all of you talk about how you hate him and his administration and the Democrats in general, and while you have been saying "MR. PRESIDENT, please know that when you allow me to exchange my currency, I am going to do everything in my power to hurt you and everything you have tried to do for THE AMERICAN PEOPLE! WHAT A GREAT PLAN YOU ALL HAVE!!!!!

BUT DON'T WORRY, CAUSE THIS IS OVER, IT WILL GO DOWN NOW AND WE WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO HELP PEOPLE, BUT INSTEAD OF DOING THAT, I HAVE AN IDEA, YOU ALL GO OUT AND SPEND YOUR MONEY TO SUPPORT THESE POLITICAL HACKS AND THE PARTY that has been trying to smear this President and his party, smear everything this whole opportunity was created for, destroy what was intended to help us MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE start new businesses and what was always intended to offer folks an opportunity to change things in this country,ALL OF THIS INTEL, we have been hearing is intended to smear or alter the truth, and the truth is, this took some time and was done BY THE BOOK, just exactly as every other RV has in the past! But with new opportunities for us, The MIDDLE. What have all of these political operatives been attempting to do? They have been trying to tell you that the President destroyed this deal or used it to specifically help his "Friends" steal from this RV process as if he is a simple minded crook??? Really? for one believe the truth will set you free, and we will learn the truth now, but remember the truth as you go on with your lives. Remember who tried to manipulate you and tried to sway your opinion of this President and his actions to secure a fair rate for your exchange and then built a system that would protect us all! YOU SEE, this thing was always intended to help the MIDDLE CLASS GROW and all of us contribute to the growth of this economy. Instead, I'm sorry to tell you it has become a POLITICAL FOOTBALL used by right wing political operatives to AGAIN smear the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES and distort the truth about a very complicated financial system OVERHAUL!!!

So Guys, I really pray you will all "Remember" Who it was that has been lying to you all these months, because they didn't know when this was planned to go, ONLY the President and a handful of people around the world knew when this was going to go. OH AND THAT GOES FOR ME AND EVERYONE ASSOCIATED WITH THIS SITE OR ANY OTHER, No I didn't know either, but I do now!

So, Go ahead and spend your money on these guy's political movements which aims to take from you and give more back to the rich! WHAT A GREAT PLAN!
QUESTION EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY AND REMEMBER SOMETIMES THE TRUTH IS DIRECTLY OPPOSED TO THE LOUDEST OPINION!

God bless you all and by all means, GOOD LUCK!

Watch the truth tonight, then say goodbye to all your buddies here, IT'S OVER, and now all that's left is to begin a new life filled with opportunities and possibilities, but before you go, shouldn't you decide who you believed throughout this little journey?????

I think Tony Tried his best, but he could only give us what he was given, Now you have to decide who gave him the truth????