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INTERVIEW
~ Chris Matthews & New Pope!
THIS IS AN ASTONISHING INTERVIEW...FABULOUS... It's not hard
to see why MSNBC would NEVER release this on air!
Chris
Mathews gets his butt kicked by new Pope
"This is the most
powerful e-mail I have ever read", John H.
|
This insulting, constantly-attacking interview by MSNBC’s Chris
Mathews was with Cardinal Bergoglio shortly before he was selected Pope of the
Roman Catholic Church last month. Mathews kept hammering away at why the
Cardinal could not accept practices the Church has always stood against, such
as abortion and same-sex marriage. If Mathews thought he was going to break
down the Cardinal, he was disappointed. Bergoglio dominated the acid-tongued
Mathews by keeping his cool and articulating his points. -- J
A SOCIALIST CATHOLIC REPORTER,
CHRIS MATHEWS, CHALLENGES OUR NEW POPE AND GETS HIS HEAD HANDED TO HIM ON A
PLATTER. LONG READ--WELL WORTH YOUR TIME
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A CATHOLIC TO
APPRECIATE THIS INTERVIEW WITH THE NOW NEW POPE.
The following is a transcript of an interview
between Chris Mathews of MSNBC and the then Cardinal Bergolio. It’s apparent
why the interview was never broadcast. Mathews was spent at the end, clearly
frustrated that his usual bullying tactics did not succeed. He had to have
been greatly surprised by the Cardinal’s splendid grasp of the English language
and his mastery of the timely rejoinder.This Pope is a breath of fresh air; a
very enlightening, understanding of social justice, and clearly articulated
.
CAMERA ON / BEGIN TRANSCRIPT
REPORTER: Welcome Cardinal.
BERGOGLIO: Thank you. Happy to
speak with you.
REPORTER: Well, let me get into
it directly. Last conclave, you were almost elected Pope. Can this happen
again?
BERGOGLIO: What? That I will almost
be the Pope, again?
REPORTER: No. Will you be the
next Pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I’m only
jesting with you. I understand the question. I will not be the next Pope.
REPORTER: Why not?
BERGOGLIO: I chose not to. God
has someone else in mind I’m certain.
REPORTER: But you would take the
job if it were offered.
BERGOGLIO: I think not.
REPORTER: Why not.
BERGOGLIO: I believe I’m too
embroiled in the secular fiasco. It is a spiritual job, and I’m a soldier. Look
at the nature of power. In Europe first and now in America, elected men have
taken it upon themselves to indebt their people to create an atmosphere of
dependency. And why? For their own selfish need to increase their own personal
power. I’ve been a keen observer of the effect this has on the people,
especially the poor. They are very good at creating poverty where there is no
reason to explain it. My job is try to alleviate poverty and if that means to
oppose the cause, then I will not be Pope.
REPORTER: But you are worried you
would be a spend thrift pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend. Where did you
go to school?
REPORTER: La Salle College High
School in Pennsylvania and
BERGOGLIO: And after that?
REPORTER: College of the Holy Cross.
BERGOGLIO: They told me you were Catholic. Once
elected, the Pope is by virtue of the promise of
Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error. God would
change any spend thrift politician into a responsible Pope. I’m just saying I’m
not that man.
REPORTER: So what is your job?
BERGOGLIO: My job is to ask you?
Why are men creating poverty?
REPORTER: What do you mean?
BERGOGLIO: I mean that poverty is
part of the natural condition and that is bad enough. But my task is to prevent
the aggravation of this condition. The ideology that adds to the poverty must
be denounced. I have, and this is the reason I will not be Pope. I have a
saying for myself: no more poverty than God originally intended in the
fall from Grace?
REPORTER: Oh.
BERGOGLIO: It is a spiritual
choice, and I’m a political person. I’m sorry. I know you will make more money
from this interview if I’m Pope. Or want to be Pope. But I’m sorry. I can’t
help you. God has already chosen someone anyway. Right? You learned this in
school?
REPORTER: Yes. Well? Where are
you on the issues that matter most, issues about contraception, women priests?
BERGOGLIO: This might be a
surprise to you, but I am Catholic. We are Catholic. It
isn't an issue and for you to pretend that it is being debated goes against
God.
REPORTER: If you were Pope, then
you would not change anything.
BERGOGLIO: Certainly God would
direct the new Pope to have more compassion for these newly created poor. And
if there is any social justice in the Church, the new Pope would have a stern
word for the creators of the new situation.
REPORTER: But you are staunchly
orthodox on the issues of abortion, contraception, and same-sex marriage.
BERGOGLIO: I am Catholic.
REPORTER: You were punished for
opposed same-sex marriage in Argentina. You opposed free contraception and the
government exiled you. What do you have to say about that?
BERGOGLIO: I am Catholic.
REPORTER: In the secular world,
as you say, you follow the conservative line. You oppose, uh, same-sex
marriages, very popular with young people. You are conservative on birth
control. Won’t that be the doom of the Church, alienating young people who
support reality based faith?
BERGOGLIO: Since God created the
world, He also created reality. You seem to be arguing that a man can’t be Catholic in
reality. Son, you are a Catholic?
REPORTER: Yes, of course. I meant
no disrespect
BERGOGLIO: You don’t have to
worry about offending me.
REPORTER: Okay, good. Can a, uh,
Pope even be elected if he is pro-choice or pro-love? I mean isn’t the election
sort of fixed in favor of anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, the election is
fixed by God.
REPORTER: Very witty.
BERGOGLIO: Well, you did ask.
REPORTER: It is being reported in
America that you are against marriage equality. Is that why you feel that you
can’t be Pope?
BERGOGLIO: God chooses the Pope,
and God also made men and women different.
REPORTER: But you are... a
conservative and oppose abortion!
BERGOGLIO: Friend the expression
on your face gives you away.
REPORTER: I’m sorry, I’m just
trying to do my job.
BERGOGLIO: And what job is that?
REPORTER: I’ve been sent to
interview eight men in line for the papacy.
BERGOGLIO: And I guarantee you
that they all oppose abortion. So?
REPORTER: But?
BERGOGLIO: So, you feel like you
need to alienate the eight from the flock?
REPORTER: That isn’t it. How can
the church attract young people when it is opposed to abortion and
contraception?
BERGOGLIO: Young people are just
as attracted to the truth as they are convenience and expediency. So we will
call it a draw.
REPORTER: Doesn't the church need
to modernize?
BERGOGLIO: Finally, I’ve met
someone who will advocate publicly painting over the Sistine Chapel with one of
the contemporary street artists. Are you sure you support this and in public?
REPORTER: What?
BERGOGLIO: Forgive me, I was
rude.
REPORTER: Won’t the new pope,
don't these cardinals realize what they've gotta do if they want to attract
young people to the church?
BERGOGLIO: I am a cardinal.
REPORTER: Won’t the new pope,
don't you and the other cardinals realize what they must do if they want to
attract young people to the church?
BERGOGLIO: I’ve explained the
mysteries of the atom to rural young people and also I’ve explained the Grace
of God. And you know what? They can understand both perfectly well. Frankly, I
have more trouble with adults understanding both.
REPORTER: But they have done
focus groups; if you want to spread your message you can't have this position
that's anti-gay marriage and anti-contraception.
BERGOGLIO: And you treat the
church as a political institution.
REPORTER: So we were not gonna
see any kind of change when it comes to things that matter like abortion or gay
marriage?
BERGOGLIO: All eight of the men
you will be talking to are Catholic.
REPORTER: Okay, I understand.
Let’s talk about your controversial stand on poverty.
BERGOGLIO: You want it to be
controversial?
REPORTER: But don’t you blame
various governments around the world for poverty?
BERGOGLIO: Some. Yes.
REPORTER: But you refuse to blame
corporations for their role.
BERGOGLIO: Okay, they also told
me you have a degree in economics. No buyer, or seller either, enters into any
exchange against his will. It is the nature of the economy. Man is frail, and
he makes mistakes and sometimes is greedy and they enter into exchanges that
don’t help them. Sometimes they become poor, but they made choices. There is
nothing the Church can do except try to educate people to become good
consumers. Chiefly, for me, it is an education solution on that side. And the
Church has more schools around the globe than any other faith. I say teach the
people to save their souls, and also teach them how not to become poor. And now
not to allow the government to trick them into poverty.
REPORTER: And you blame
government.
BERGOGLIO: No, I blame the
self-serving politicians.
REPORTER: So your solution to
poverty is to change the nature of politics?
BERGOGLIO: Please feel free to
broadcast this; I don’t want to be pope. Friend, you are a socialist and your
friends are socialists. And you are the reason for 70 years of misery in Russia
and Europe now is seizing in pain from your policies. You believe in the
redistribution of wealth and it makes entire populations poor. You want to
nationalize everything and bring every human endeavor under your control. You
destroy a man's incentive to take care of his very own family, a crime against
nature and nature’s God. You want social control over populations and
incrementally you are making everything against the law. Together this ideology
creates more poverty today than all the corporations you vilify have in the
history of man.
REPORTER: I’ve never heard such
from a Cardinal. I’m not sure if you are here to help yourself or disqualify
yourself.
BERGOGLIO: Please air this
interview. People being dominated by socialists need to know we don’t all have
to be poor. Some poverty is part of our being cast out of the Garden of Eden.
But look at the empire of dependency created by Hugo Chavez. Promising them, tricking
them into worship of government and his very own person. Giving them fish but
not allowing them to fish. If a fisherman does develop a talent today in Latin
America; he is castigated and his catch stolen by the socialists. He stops?
REPORTER: You would be the first
pope from the Americas.
BERGOGLIO: He stops fishing. I
will not be pope, but yes I am from Argentina.
REPORTER: And you didn't want to
be pope?
BERGOGLIO: God didn’t want me to
be pope.
REPORTER: Perhaps he changed his
mind.
BERGOGLIO: Ludicrous.
REPORTER: Okay, I’m sorry. I feel
like we are getting off on the wrong path. I’m sorry.
BERGOGLIO: Yes, let’s be
productive.
REPORTER: You are a classic
conservative Catholic
theologian?
BERGOGLIO: Of course there's
politics clearly in the Curia throughout the Vatican, but in terms of church
teaching, it's not a political institution. It's religious.
REPORTER: I heard people, in
fact, media people, "Is this cardinal, is he a liberal? Is he a
conservative?"
BERGOGLIO: Tell them please, He's
a Catholic. It's no more complicated than
that. Catholicism is what it is. You don't have
to believe it; you may not. You don't have to follow it; you may not go to
Mass. But it's not up to you to modernize us.
REPORTER: You see no room for
reform?
BERGOGLIO: It's not up to any
religion, although some do this, 'cause they want the money. They want the
membership. But the Catholic Church
doesn't do it. It's not up to them to bend and shape and mold itself to
accommodate the shrinking depravity of a worldwide culture. It's to provide the
exact opposite. It's to provide a beacon out of depravity, socialism and sin,
among other things.
REPORTER: If pope you would be
bad news for the left.
BERGOGLIO: I won’t be pope. But I
am opposed to abortion. I’m opposed to euthanasia. The pro-choice movement is a
culture of death. I oppose the demonic same-sex marriage. I oppose gay adoption
on the grounds that it is discriminatory to the child. I was exiled by the
Cristina Kirchner government, but I hold no grudge. How is this bad news?
REPORTER: John Paul II rescued
you?
BERGOGLIO: He made me the
archbishop of Buenos Aires. Yes.
REPORTER: And so you feel like
you owe the Right some sort of repayment?
BERGOGLIO: There are many values
and many types of people. Perhaps it is my interest in mathematics, but I’m the
type of human who is interested most in the truth. God gave me a healthy love
for the truth. Loyalty is only a virtue if in support of the truth or another
important value.
REPORTER: Cristina Kirchner said
you held a grudge.
BERGOGLIO: Funny I’ve never
spoken her name. Not once. And it is a battle of ideas not a battle of two or
more people. I’m only concerned with ideas.
REPORTER: She said you refused to
speak up for civil rights violations.
BERGOGLIO: As a spiritual leader,
I opposed cultural modernization, and so I became a political enemy. I
understand politics as well as I do mathematics.
REPORTER: And the Jesuits, they
were eager to cast you out, which they did.
BERGOGLIO: So you are implying
that I’m a vengeful priest?
REPORTER: Do you feel that you
need to erase the progress recently made in Latin America?
BERGOGLIO: I say poverty. You say
progress.
REPORTER: Let’s talk about
poverty.
BERGOGLIO: Sure, there is
voluntary poverty that is virtuous. Many understood the nobility of making
themselves independent of the fleeting things of earth. They are distractions
from our pursuit of the truth. I have no problem with this. I only oppose involuntary
poverty.
REPORTER: That is what I thought
you would say.
BERGOGLIO: Why?
REPORTER: Because you are a
capitalist right?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, I think capital
is needed to build a factory, a parochial school, or a church or hospital, all.
Do you oppose factories or churches or hospitals?
REPORTER: Of course not, but
don’t you think the capital is sucked out of peoples hands by greedy business
types to pay for these factories?
BERGOGLIO: No, I think people
agree, through their economic choices, that some of their money goes to build
these. Capital building should be voluntary. Only when the politician
confiscates their wealth to build government factories, government schools,
government hospitals; only then do the people not agree. Money given voluntarily
is legitimate to build with. Money coerced from the people is not legitimate to
build with, because it isn’t given voluntarily.
REPORTER: You are opposed to all
government?
BERGOGLIO: No of course not. But
it isn’t the seat of wisdom in any society I’ve seen in my life. The best
government was created by the Americans, in which they admitted that people are
endowed by their creator and most of the administration of society was left to
the relationship between God and man. However, slowly that has been eroded by
the atheists on the left who would replace man's relationship with God with a
new relationship with an opportunist like Hugo Chavez.
REPORTER: I just found it
fascinating that you were willing to stand up to an entire government in Argentina.
You where cast aside. Didn’t you care about your career?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, there are people
who cave to worldly authority. Even priests.
REPORTER: But you didn’t?
BERGOGLIO: No, I changed nothing.
How did I have the power to change anything in church teaching? My opinion? The
democrats, seeking votes, only wanted me to change my opinion and legitimize
their decadence. I did not, as evidenced by the fact that I was teaching high
school math in small isolated town.
REPORTER: I’m sorry that happened
to you.
BERGOGLIO: Why don’t you feel for
others oppressed for their interest in freedom.
REPORTER: Freedom isn’t punished
anywhere, is it?
BERGOGLIO: Certainly it is.
REPORTER: In Latin America?
BERGOGLIO: I’m afraid Latin
America is lost. The people of the entire area are controlled by a bloc of
militant socialist regimes in the region, most prominently Venezuela, Ecuador,
Bolivia and Nicaragua. They have a gun pointed at their head. So their heart is
now captured. Who will save them at this point?
REPORTER: So the game is over.
Checkmate?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I’ve been
studying America this month before the Pope chose to resign. You must not have
fear at speaking the truth. It is for the salvation of souls and the recovery
of Thomas Jefferson’s people. America must not fall to the new painted
communism. Even the low information voters don’t want America to be sold into
slavery. I pray they cast out the money changers in their government! What manner
of government is there that condones sin? Abomination upon abomination--giving
monies for the murder of children, giving monies for the murder of the elderly!
You are an American. Your government, My child, has been infiltrated by men of
sin.
REPORTER: These are pretty
radical ideas.
BERGOGLIO: No. Perhaps
reactionary. Radical means something different. But a very long time ago,
Khrushchev warned that we cannot expect Americans to fly from capitalism to
communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small
injections of socialism until they suddenly awake to find out they have
Communism. This is what is happening now in an ancient bastion of freedom. How
can America save Latin America when they are slaves to the government themselves?
REPORTER: I’m having a hard time
digesting most of this.
BERGOGLIO: The truth can be
painful. You look angry; do you want to stop or ask a question? But you have
created a new type of state, the so-called welfare state. This has happened in
order to respond to the needs of the politically created poor. However,
intervening directly is depriving the original society of its responsibility.
Families escape responsibility in the welfare state. And churches even escape
responsibility. People stop giving to charity and see every poor person as the
government’s problem. I am a Catholic priest
and there are no poor for me to take care of, they are made permanently poor
and the property of the politicians.
REPORTER: I’m not sure this
interview is going to work.
BERGOGLIO: You asked and now you
will listen, my son. The social assistance state leads to a loss of human
energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated
more by bureaucratic thinking than by real concern for helping people. Needs
are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them who act as
neighbors and parish members to those in need. It should be added that certain
kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but
which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. This is not to mention
the welfare states excesses and abuses.
REPORTER: I think we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Wait. If I speak on
the ordination of women, on celibacy, on divorce, will you air this interview
and my message?
REPORTER: No, we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Partially what
irritates me to the core is the media’s inability to look at anything without
looking into the cause of the various problems. People are made poor so they
will vote for the very candidates that made them poor.
REPORTER: Have a nice day and
thanks for your time.
CAMERA OFF / END TRANSCRIPT
